Ask Mr. Thinker

Mr. Thinker,
I have recently purchased a restored 1960 530 John Deere. The dash behind the gauges and hour meter are green. I have been informed that they should be black. What finish of black paint should be used and should the steering column be black also? I would like to know if anyone produced dish rear wheels for the tractor to reduce weight. I have only a one-half ton truck to tow with and the tractor will be used for show only.
J.A., North Carolina

It doesn’t sound like it was restored real well. Waterloo-built 530s should have a black dash; however, those assembled south of the border did not. The steering column should be black unless the tractor is a propane burner. Mr. Thinker would use a semigloss paint. If you are going to be taking your tractor to shows, why do you want to put nonstock rear wheels on it? You can order a copy of the tractor puller’s magazine, The Hook, by calling 317-468-7000 and there you’ll find several different sources of rims that will allow you to reduce some weight. You could probably even find ones made from aluminum but the cost/benefit ratio is going to be something to ponder. According to the Master Parts Index, your cast centers weigh about 266 pounds each. If you could knock off 150 pounds each side, would that be worth the extra cost and making your tractor look like a puller? MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I have two questions requiring answers. My first question concerns tractor equipment. I would like to know if there is a book that lists tractors and the equipment that goes with them. By this, I mean what plow goes best with a ’37 model “A” or what disc could go with an 820?
My second question deals with a 1962 model 3010. I have one with a USX carb with the number 30 on the cover. I can’t find this in any parts breakdown or listed anywhere. Is this a misprint on the cap or is this something just not covered in any parts book?
J.S., Illinois

Many of the books published by Green Magazine have charts of matched working equipment. Call our office (402-643-6269) at your convenience and let us know what tractor you’re looking to match up. We’ll let you know if our book on that model has such a chart. Mr. Thinker isn’t terribly sure that he understands your second question, but would like you to consider the possibility that perhaps the “30” means the carb is set up for a 3010 or 3020 as opposed to a 4010 or 4020. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I am both a Ford model “A” car nut and a John Deere tractor nut. I recently bought an Ertl 1930 Ford model “A” roadster die cast metal vehicle, stock number 5050, from our local John Deere dealer. Did such a vehicle exist? Do you have any evidence of the existence of JD fleet or dealer model “A” cars?
S.H., Idaho

So in essence what you are asking Mr. Thinker is if between the years 1928 and 2003, someone at either Deere and Company or affiliated with a John Deere dealer painted a John Deere logo on the side of one or more model “A” Fords? Considering the fact that between 1928 and 1931, probably 80 percent of the new cars sold were model “A” Fords, yes, it’s very likely. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I am 16 years old and am looking at buying a “GPWT” that has top steer. The serial number is 404149. Is it possible this was done at the factory? I thought that top steers did not start until number 404810. If so, could this be some kind of call back seeing that is fairly close when they changed to top steer?
S.G., Maine

Dude! Your photo wasn’t too great and, as such, Mr. Thinker wasn’t able to reprint it here. However, as you may know, a true post SN 404810 overhead steer “GP” would have the exhaust and air stacks going through the hood. Because the overhead steer tractors handled so much better, many of the earlier tractors were converted to overhead steering, some using junk and some using original Deere parts like the one in the photo. MT

Dear Smart Guy,
I broke the Roll-O-Matic on my model 60. Recently, at a swap meet, a guy was trying to sell me a replacement but it didn’t look the same. Is there only one or more than one type that would fit on my 60?
J.M., Indiana

Center post Spindles Application
AB4563R B2711R, B2712R 50, 520, 530 regular duty

AA4935R A3471R, A3472R Regular duty
for 60,70,620, 630, 720, 730
Heavy duty for 520,530

AR28249R R20258R, R20254R Heavy duty
for 620/630, 720/730
Regular for 3010/4010

AR28249R R30387R, R30388R Heavy duty for 3010/4010
and later tractors

Here’s a chart (above) that should help answer your query.
Mr. Thinker isn’t sure why this chart, gleaned from Deere literature, doesn’t list the AR28249R as a heavy duty for the 60 but logic would seem to indicate that it would fit. Deere also built a light duty Roll-O-Matic for use on the 1010 and 2010. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I am sending you a hydraulic lifter that maybe you can identify. My John Deere dealer and the service manager from the Columbus Branch were unable to come up with an answer. Your help would be greatly appreciated.
C.W., Indiana

For a hint, listen to this short musical interlude: “Harvest the U.S.A., with a Chevrolet.” The lifter is from a 292 Chevrolet engine such as used in a 4400 combine. One more thing—thanks for sending me a question with the lifter ... unlike the guy with the spark plugs. MT

Mr. Thinker,
I recently bought a 1971 John Deere 4020 diesel. The previous owner had installed an oil pressure gauge. I noticed that after working the tractor for a while, the pressure drops to about 5 pounds. I replaced the gauge, oil, oil filter and tightened the pump bolts. The pressure goes from 32 to 3, so that didn’t help. I next replaced the oil pump, had the injector pump rectified and set all the right timings and changed the oil filter. I ran the tractor at high RPMs for half an hour and the pressure went from about 42 to 18 pounds. Any suggestions on what might be wrong?
L.B., Texas

As Mr. Thinker has been known to say, when all else fails, look for something stupid. Is the “O” ring between the oil pump and the oil filter housing in good shape and in place? How many shims are under the oil pressure regulating valve? The seat can push through the housing if the steel band is warped. If everything is okay there, check the rocker arm shaft to make sure the plugs are in and that oil isn’t pouring out one of the ends. If no history of the engine is known, you may have to measure and possibly plasti-gauge the main and rod bearing journals to check for proper clearance. New rod bearings should be in the .0015 to .0045 inch area with used ones up to .0065. New mains should be .0017 to .0047 with used ones up to .0067 inch. Oil pressure should be 25 to 40 PSI at 1900 RPM and normal operating temperature. Also, check oil cooler bypass valve for a weak spring when hot. If fuel dilution is suspected, check the fuel transfer pump for internal leakage. You might also want to consider having an oil sample analyzed for fuel and antifreeze. Even a small amount of antifreeze will ruin the bearings. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I had a disagreement with a pull chairman of a club as to what year my model 50, serial number 5010409, was made. He said it was made in 1953 by their book. My serial number register said it was made in 1952.
R.B., Michigan

Mr. Thinker cannot fathom why whether this tractor was built on Dec. 31, 1952 or Jan. 1, 1953 should make any difference to the tractor pulling crowd. Either way, it is a 1953 model and there would be no differences that would put it at a competitive advantage or disadvantage. MT
Dear Mr. Thinker and the Wizards of Green,
This picture shows a John Deere raker bar cylinder loader I recently bought at an auction. It had been stored away in a dry barn and with a few shots of grease, it is in operating condition. It has no serial number other than a “No. 24” painted on the sheet metal on the lower front. I first found a picture of one in the 1938 pocket ledger and the last picture in the 1952 ledger. Is it possible to figure out what year it was made? Also, do any color pictures of one exist? Finally, after a number of years, I only recently completed my collection of all 28 editions of The Operation, Care and Repair of Farm Machinery books. Could you settle a big question—which one is the rarest?
C.F., Indiana

Here is the closest thing to a color picture of this piece of equipment that Mr. Thinker has. You will notice the one in this picture is galvanized and it appears like yours may have been painted. If so, we might assume (and you know what they say about assuming) that the same scenario existed with the hay loaders as the threshers and that the late ones were painted rather than galvanized. From the illustration, you will also notice that Mr. Thinker’s rule of thumb for paint schemes of horsey type equipment holds pretty true— green metal, red wood and yellow wheels. As for the Operation, Care and Repair books, Greg Stephen’s opinion is that the 1927 version is the rarest and that it often goes unnoticed because it does not say “1st edition.” Oh, one more thing, there were actually 29 versions of the book if you count the one printed in Spanish; that edition is probably equally hard to find as the first. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I won a 1952 model “B.” I would like to mount a loader on it and this letter is to find out what is involved. I do not own a loader so the first question is what model or models should I be looking for that are compatible with this tractor? And if there are several choices—is one model better or easier to use than the others? I have enclosed a picture (above) of the Powr-Trol unit on the tractor. What else do I need to mount a loader on the tractor? Are manuals available and, if so, where can I get one if I purchase a loader? Are there certain parts of a loader that wear out quicker than others?
D.T., Colorado

If you’re sticking to John Deere loaders, you’ll want to look for either a number 50 or 45. If you choose a 45, make sure that the axle mounts are adaptable to your tractor since some are not. Cracks and being sprung are the most common forms of wear on loaders, though if you’re looking at a 50-year-old loader, you very likely will find a few places where it has been cracked and welded. Mr. Thinker would avoid any loader that seems to be sprung as bending it back straight is extremely difficult if not, in some cases, impossible. You may also find leaky seals on the hydraulic cylinders and bad hoses, but these can be replaced. With the hydraulic system on your tractor, you should do fine with either of the aforementioned loaders, but you will of course be limited to mechanical bucket dump unless auxillary valves are added. MT

Mr. Thinker,
I have a 1949 John Deere model “A.” It wouldn’t fit in my garage so I bought a new mufffler and had it shortened. It is the same height as the air intake. Do you think it will burn my valves? The air comes in on the back side of the intake. I thought the air would go up.
R.G., Iowa

See the photo of the original “A”? The muffler and air stack are the same height. Apparently the Deere engineers didn’t worry that the hot exhaust gases were going to exit the muffler do a 270 degree turn, go back down the air stack and burn the valves. If Mr. Thinker has learned one thing over the years, it is that too many of you worry way too much. These two cylinder engines are some of the most rugged ever built. They have survived coolant that moments before had bullheads swimming in it, crankcase oils that would likely lock up your Toyota before you got out of the garage and fuels ranging from barely flammable oils to high octane alcohol mixtures—all this while pounding out the power day after day, year after year. Now we seem to be afraid that using unleaded gas while driving in a parade is going to ruin the engine. Mr. Thinker isn’t suggesting that we should all go out and abuse our tractors, but would suggest that they have survived far worse in terms of use and maintenance than 99 percent of use are liklely to give them today. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I have a model 1010 RUS, serial number 54622, with a very bad gasoline engine. I would like to know if the engine from a 45 combine is the same engine or if there is another John Deere engine that would work in my tractor.
A.G.S., Texas

Your 1010 RUS used a 115 cubic inch engine. The 145 power unit used on the 45 combine will physically bolt up to your 1010 and would make a real tiger out of it, but not for long, as the transmission and final drive gears would not stand the power of the 145 for very long with any kind of a load. Model 40 combines, engine-driven 323 balers, 215 windrowers and 600 Hi-Cycles all used the 115 engine, so there should be some of these engines around. Remember to remove and reinstall your serial number tag from your old engine block when you change engines to preserve the value and identity of your 1010. MT

Past Mr. Thinker Questions

• September 1997

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I have a 720 LP that I have a problem with and am looking for some help. The problem is that when I turn on the vapor valve and turn on the ignition switch, the oil in the air cleaner bubbles. The service manual doesn't say anything about this kind of problem. So, is there an O-ring or something in the converter or carburetor that is bad or is it something else? Any help you could give would be appreciated.
J.K., Wisconsin

Well, it's nice to know at least SOMEONE takes Mr. Thinker's advice about obtaining service manuals seriously, but you're right, this particular malady isn't covered in the service manual, at least not in so many words. Your problem is a blown or leaking diaphragm in the converter. Parts for the early series (first numbered and 20 series) converters are getting difficult to come by and rebuild kits are no longer available from Deere, though some individual parts are still available. A better solution is to contact Nick Barbieri at 4 Monroe Avenue, N. Merrick, NY 11566 or phone (516) 221-5947. Mr. Thinker is advised that rebuild kits are available and even complete new Century converters, if you feel you aren't up to the task of rebuilding yours. Nick is also stocking new valves, valve rebuild kits, fuel gauges and nearly everything necessary to completely rebuild your LP-gas fuel system. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
This is not your usual question. I am asking you to arbitrate a long-standing disagreement that I have had with my dad about John Deere clutch pulley covers. As you know, there is a flattened area every 120 degrees around the cover. I am trained as an engineer and although I don't claim that engineers know everything, my intuition tells me that the flattened areas should be lined up with the clutch adjusting bolts and that the curled up area is for the clips inside to have something to grab onto. However, my dad disagrees with me-every time I do clutch work for him, he gripes and moans that I put the cover on wrong-he thinks that the spring clips should line up with the flattened areas and that the curled edges should be forced over the adjusting bolts. Doing it my way, I can put the cover on by hand-doing it his way requires a hammer. Despite my numerous explanations, I cannot reason with the man! So, who is correct, me or Dad?
W.J.G., Iowa

Someone once told Mr. Thinker that arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig-after a couple of hours, you realize that they really DO like it! Mr. Thinker isn't in the business of arbitrating father/son disputes, but he will tell you that you are right and your dad is wrong. However, since we all have fathers, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Sounds like your dad is of the "don't confuse me with the facts" persuasion and from long experience, Mr. Thinker can tell you that it's simply no use to argue with such folks. Just do the clutch work and let him put on the clutch cover any way he wants to and bite your tongue-does it really make any difference in the long run? MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
It was nice to meet J.R. at the New York Expo IV, nice to have a face to put with the name-he's a very funny man. My question is about my standard tread model "A" tractor. I was told by the man I bought it from that it is an "AR," but there are things about it that make me think it could be an "AO," such as wide rear fenders, offset seat and steering, and steering brakes. It's also got 26 inch rims on cast wheel centers number A2759R on the rear, with pressed steel wheels and 6.00 x16 tires on the front. Are these right for my tractor, serial number 268177?
B.G., Connecticut.

Here at the office, we think J.R. is a little "funny," too, but not in the way that you mean, Mr. Thinker suspects. As to your tractor, Mr. Thinker could give you a better answer if you had sent a photo, since there is very little difference between the late unstyled "AR" and "AO" tractors. If your tractor has the wider rear fenders with four ribs, then it's probably an "AO" with citrus fenders. Most "AR" tractors were not equipped with differential brakes, so given the available evidence, Mr. Thinker would guess that your tractor is an "AO" but the only way to know for absolutely sure is to write Deere Archives, One John Deere Place, Moline, Illinois 61265. If you write a nice letter, giving them the serial number of your tractor, in due course you will receive a reply. The wheel equipment on your tractor is correct for its serial number. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I purchased a John Deere-Killefer attachment/implement last winter. The identification tag was still intact and I was able to identify the unit as a No. 57 integral rear tool carrier. I would like to research this unit as well as John Deere-Killefer in general. My first stop was John Deere Distribution, where I obtained a parts book, and while I was at it, also obtained parts books for other Killefer equipment. I've also been able to purchase some original sales brochures and operator's manuals, which I have found to be most interesting and this leads me to the following questions. When did John Deere purchase Killefer Manufacturing Company of Los Angeles, California? If this facility is no longer being used by Deere, when were operations shut down? It appears that the Plow Works and Killefer may have had some areas where the product lines overlapped. If this was the case, what would be the advantage of John Deere-Killefer equipment over regular John Deere equipment? Was John Deere-Killefer equipment generally distributed throughout the United States and Canada or was it confined to the western states? Any answers you can provide will be helpful and interesting to collectors of implements.
H.M., Iowa

Mr. Thinker cannot find any reference for a No. 57 integral tool carrier, though there is a listing for a No. 67 integral tool carrier, which was designed for 20 and 30 series Waterloo Hi-Crop tractors and a No. 58 integral tool carrier for 20 and 30 series row crop tractors, as well as a No. 37 for 40, 420, and 430 Hi-Crop tractors. There may well be a No. 57, but Mr. Thinker cannot find anything on it.

As to your other questions, the Killefer Manufacturing Company was established in 1892 in Los Angeles, California. Deere jobbed Killefer equipment for some years before purchasing Killefer in 1937. The Killefer plant was closed on Jan. 6, 1969. Actually, there was very little product overlap between the Plow Works and Killefer products, as Killefer produced very heavy duty tillage implements for use in the west, which is one reason why Deere purchased Killefer, as the Plow Works didn't really want to manufacture the extremely heavy duty tools and implements. Products of the Killefer factory were distributed throughout the U.S. and Canada and were also widely exported, though the primary market for the Killefer product was in the irrigated areas of the west. Mr. Thinker hears that Ralph Hughes is doing research for an article about the Killefer Works, to be published in GM in the near future, so stay tuned. You might also find the book "Inside John Deere-A Factory History," quite interesting. It's available from the GM Bookstore, order number MB12. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I recently had the opportunity to see Frank Hansen's Dain tractor, just a couple of weeks after J.R.'s article about the JD experimental tractors appeared in the August issue of GM. After hearing Mr. Hansen's story about his tractor and reading J.R's article, I have several questions. 1. In your opinion, is this one of the surviving Dain tractors? From the pictures in GM, it appears so. However, Mr. Hansen gets rather indignant when someone refers to his tractor as a Dain-as it apparently has a John Deere serial tag. 2. Mr. Hansen purports that his tractor is the only one of its kind, while J.R. indicates that two complete tractors and the hulk of a third are known to exist. Does Mr. Hansen have something else or is he misrepresenting what he has and needs to be brought up to date? I assume you know more about this than I do. I am just curious and would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
R.D.W., Minnesota

Mr. Thinker is mindful of the saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all," and bearing that in mind, Mr. Thinker will keep his thoughts concerning Mr. Hansen to himself. To answer your questions, however, yes, Mr. Hansen is technically correct when he refers to his tractor as a John Deere tractor-it was built by Deere and the words "John Deere Tractor" do appear on the serial number plate. On the other hand, most, if not all, of the internal Deere correspondence concerning these tractors refer to them as Dain. J.R. says that he used the Dain designation because it is common usage and most collectors know what a Dain is-as opposed to John Deere tractor, which could be anything-and confusing to a lot of people. Mr. Hansen's tractor is indeed the most complete example known to exist-the other running tractor is missing its original radiator and hood and the third tractor is a mere hulk, just a chassis. What Mr. Hansen has is the 79th John Deere tractor of Dain design out of a build of 100 and while he isn't exactly misrepresenting it, let's say that the truth has been stretched just a wee bit. Mr. Thinker learned a long time ago that there's no use arguing with a zealot. 'Nuff said. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
Recently, at an antique tractor show, curiosity got the better of me and I asked the owner of a 720 Hi-Crop if Deere had ever produced integral implements for the Hi-Crop tractors. The reaction from the owner was one of total indifference. He told me that implements were of no consequence and who did I think I was, wasting his valuable time? I was able to attend a second show shortly afterward and as luck would have it, someone was showing his 630 Hi-Crop. Thinking that perhaps the 720 owner was just having a bad day, I decided to ask the owner of the 630 the same question. To my surprise, I got the same reaction from owner number two as I did from owner number one. As I got to thinking back through the years, I cannot ever recall seeing a Hi-Crop tractor displayed with any kind of implement, either integral or drawn. I am sure that equipment was made for these tractors, since I don't think they were built for rounding up the cows. So, my question is, did Deere build integral implements for Hi-Crop tractors? If they did, could you provide a condensed listing of these implements? If lack of space makes such a listing impossible, how about featuring an article about these implements in future issue of GM? Lastly, could you provide some explanation for the "Mr. Thinker" type of attitude exhibited by the two aforementioned Hi-Crop owners?
Name withheld by request, Iowa

Yes, Deere produced a wide variety of integral implements for the Hi-Crop tractors, enough so that a listing would take up too much room here, but you have a good idea and Mr. Thinker will pass it on to the editor and see if J.R. or Ralph Hughes can come up with a good article on implements for Hi-Crop tractors in a future issue of GM. Probably the reason the Hi-Crop owners were so testy about this subject is because they've never been able to find any of the integral equipment for their tractors, which seems to be as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth. Most owners of Hi-Crop tractors are very nice people, but like you, Mr. Thinker has run into a couple of them who seem to be overly impressed with themselves. Just give 'em a wide berth and let them live in their own weird little world. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I have a 1955 John Deere 70, serial number 7031670LP. It has a 12V positive ground electrical system. I would like to put an electronic ignition system on this tractor and there appear to be some available, but all that I have inquired about for John Deere are for negative ground systems only. I have two questions. First, why did Deere make all two-cylinder electrical systems positive ground? Second, can the system be made negative ground and, if so, what all do you have to change? I sincerely enjoy GM and I consider your section of GM one of the most interesting and informative despite the fact that you are a little arrogant sometimes.
C.G., Texas

Arrogant? Mr. Thinker? Surely you jest! Mr. Thinker is actually a very nice guy, despite all those rumors. Did you ever stop to consider that if perhaps there was a Ms. or Mrs. Thinker to soothe him (the position is open), Mr. Thinker wouldn't be so grouchy sometimes? Anyway, to answer your questions. The reason that Mr. Thinker has always been given as to why Deere (and most other manufacturers) used positive ground electrical systems was these systems tended to have less corrosion, for reasons even Mr. Thinker doesn't quite fathom. Yes, a positive ground system can be converted to negative ground-just switch the batteries around, reverse the leads on the ammeter and ignition coil, repolarize the generator and bingo, you now have a negative ground system.

While Mr. Thinker thinks that electronic ignition is the way to go, especially with today's fuels, before you convert your tractor to negative ground, contact Genessee Products at (918) 274-8000. Mr. Thinker hears that they are developing electronic ignition systems for positive ground electrical systems and it would be well worth your time to give them a call, as they are friendly, knowledgeable people. MT

Dear Mr. Thinker,
I need to ask you a question. I just purchased a 1938 John Deere "BO" that has a generator whose tag reads "Northeast Elec. Co. Model #6530, 6V." Is this the hard to come by, made out of unobtainium generator that would have run the big light on the front of an unstyled John Deere tractor before electric starting and lighting was adopted? I cannot find anything on these generators anywhere. I bought this tractor from the original owner and the tractor is very straight and correct in every respect. I would appreciate any insight you may have on this.
J.J., New York

Congratulations, you have stumped Mr. Thinker on this one! Mr. Thinker has looked through every scrap of his considerable volume of reference material and like you, cannot find any references to "Northeast Elec. Co." What little information Mr. Thinker does have about lighting equipment from this era indicates that the usual suppliers of Deere electrical equipment were K-W, Prestolite and Delco. The best guess (and it is only a guess) that Mr. Thinker can give you is that perhaps your "BO" was equipped with this generator at the branch house or dealer level and perhaps the Syracuse Branch or the selling dealer used Northeast Electric Co. as its supplier or perhaps the original generator was replaced with the one you have. However, since you have some contact with the original owner, perhaps he/she can provide some insight. In any case, Mr. Thinker would advise that you keep this generator with the tractor-it'll give the correct police nightmares! MT

Mr. Thinker is the collective identity of several "experts." He answers any kind of Deere related question. He can be a little grouchy and satirical, however, so be careful what you ask. He ’s always informative, sometimes nasty, but never boring.

Send your questions to: Mr. Thinker, c/o Green Magazine, 2652 Davey Road, Bee, NE 68314